Dark Age of Camelot Discussion

[dunker]

So the "If only..." thread got me thinking. What would you do differently around the time ToA and/or NF came out? For those of you who didn't play DAOC, here's the picture.

DISCLAIMER - This next part is long-winded, I apologize. If you want to read it for clarity if you never played, go for it. If you have played, but want to make sure I got it right, go for it. Otherwise, scroll to the bottom.

DAOC is run by a small gaming company, Mythic. It's end game is frontier battles for relics, which give small boosts, in a PvP fashion (also known as Realm vs. Realm - RvR).

They have their original game, and two expansions. One expansion is SI, and to this day is heralded as one of the best expansions ever (not saying much). The second was a small one, which introduced player/guild housing into the game (and their version of auction houses). It was a low budget game, with almost no advertising, just word of mouth.

Original Problem - No Marketing

(New Expansion) Then comes "Trials of Atlantis". ToA was a PvE expansion, much like SI, but on a grander scale. 10 "Master Levels" were added, which required a player to complete solo, group, and raid missions. After having completed all these steps, you had to acquire 100% Master Level experience to move on. Master Level Experience was acquired through killing big bad guys in ToA, or killing in RvR.

It also added Artifacts, which were items that could be obtained solo, group, or with a raid depending on the artifacts relevant encounter. Once you had the artifact, you had to grind to get 3 sets of scrolls, and combine them into a book. Once the artifact was complete and activated, you had to level it in specific ways (killing specific mobs, killing in specific places, etc.)

Problem(s) - New PvE grinds in a game that attracted mostly PvP and casual players. These grinds were INTENSE. Some of the requirements for leveling artifacts were outrageous, not to mention some artifacts required raids to obtain credit, but only one person would actually get the artifact. Oh, did I not mention that you had to have the artifact AND credit to activate it? And sometimes the encounters would bug and not give credit. Master levels would bug out and not give credit and would have long respawn timers. Many people dreaded ML3. The first ML3 raid on Midgard/Guinevere lasted 27 hours (give or take).

(New Expansion) Now we have New Frontiers. A total revamp to the Frontiers (where the fighting occurred). It turned it into one zone, each keep now has 4 towers, you can teleport to keeps, a big ocean in between the continents so you had to boat in between them. What a mess. Each mainland area was also redesigned.

Problem(s) - You had to boat to other places. While you could jump early, coasts were guarded up and down drop points especially. The frontier was HUGE now, and getting around was a pain. Teleporting could have alleviated this problem, except you only needed 1 tower to stop it. Then you'd have someone zerg rush a keep and towers in your frontier, and it became almost impossible to force them out (due to certain mechanics not mentioned here).

WHAT WOULD I HAVE DONE?

After the success of SI with my own player base, I would have marketed. At least on IGN/VN and other gaming sites, and then moved to more mainstream sites. I'm not sure I would have done T.V.

I would have tried to release ToA as it is now. Hindsight and all that, but many of the changes they've made over the years I suggested they do back when it was released. If it wasn't possible at the time, I would have turned my interest to releasing a Frontier revamp until it was possible.

NF would not have happened. I would have kept the old frontier, added the new keep designs to both regular and relic keeps, added two towers per keep, and added mountain passes to help with Milegate camping.

Modified - I wanted to add. Guild houses/personal houses. I would have removed the ability to craft in them. Kept them as a hub for teleportation, storage, etc. and given discounts on healing, repairing, and the like.

What about you?

[Darv]

ToA was brutal. I was on the first ml3 on Hib/Guin... took us about the same amount of time, if I'm remembering right. I agree that the initial problem was marketing. And it is still a problem to this day... game simply isn't advertised. And that's really a shame. I still think DAoC offered the best PvP ever.

[NeoFoxTrot]

You nailed it. A couple things:

-ToA was what made me quit the game (and I assume most of you). Some of the ideas were solid, but the execution was beyond brutal. It turned the game into a chore, which isn't what a game should be. I don't expect to be given stuff on a golden platter, but there's a limit...

-Very good point about the marketing. I had originally heard about DAoC through some friends in EQ. That was the only way I knew about it. As you mentioned, there was hardly any marketing to speak of. Same with the expansions. I knew about them because I was playing the game, but I don't recall ever hearing or seeing an advertisement for it. Even the guys at my local GameStop (or was it Funcoland back then?) had no clue what the game was about. This is a real shame, because DAoC is still my favorite MMO to this day.

-RvR was a godsend. There was a time when I had to play on dial-up in college, and I still had fun with it. I don't care if my connection speed caused me a handicap. That's how much fun it really was.

I had such high hopes for WAR, but it never captured the essence of DAoC.

[Setharion]

For me it was all simple what they could of done. I think ToA could of been alright but killing off emain really really hurt it for me.

They tried way to much all at once, they got rid of emain and put in frontiers that to me just didnt work overall. Especially when Emain was so much fun. They were implementing housing at the time which would of been more than sufficient. And then they had ToA that was trying way to hard to be Everquest at least i thought.

Simply for me if they would of kept Emain and never did the frontiers thing, and if they would of just focused on some new items via ToA i think DAOC could of kept going strong. And then their quick focus to WAR was another nail in the coffin. Just was ashame overall.

[teylix]

Yeah I don't really hold TOA in contempt like some people. At the beginning, it was really a PITA with missed credit, bugged encounters, etc.

However if you played through it for the first time a year or two ago, it wasnt half bad. Everything can be done with < 2 groups, artifact xp can be purchased (i think), and it added a lot of content to the game.

It caused a lot of problems still though. I remember when power/heal fonts were stackable. That made defenses impenetrable. Some ML abilities ruined the dynamics of the game such as bodyguarding. It shouldve been implemented where if you attack the BGee, you caused damage to the BGer even if you had the BGee on target. Maybe also a big "KICK ME" sign over them. Maybe I'm just a complainer since I played a zerk and I would rush in, zerk, and then waste 1/3 of my zerk time reading "This target is bodyguarded!"

My real issue was with NF. Lack of choke points changed the RvR dynamic. You couldn't go camping druim ligen or sauvage gates like in OF. Didnt like the whole setup.

Some of the issue for me was the community began to change as well. I played on guinevere up until SI and people cared about the game experience and community. I might be talking out of my ass with rose-colored glasses, but the fact you HAD to group with others that didnt seem like rude neighbors was awesome. People said hail and roleplayed and everyone experienced new things together.

Now it's about who gets the most RPs and doing whatever it takes. I'm not sure what's the cause or effect of the PVE/PVP relationship, but back then people didnt borrow someone's buffbots and necros to PL their infiltrators while getting in fights with people trying to share the PL camps so they could go grief people. You spent time enjoying others company while killing some mobs rather than making it a solitary experience. I think it really was destined to only work for a short time anyways.

Still surprising no game has done a three faction pvp system again. What's up with that? That's what made DAOC still have the best PVP of any MMORPG I've ever played. It made things fun that you could experience entirely new dynamics in a new realm rather than a game like WOW where a mage is a mage in different clothing.

This ended up more longwinded than I anticipated.

[Setharion]

Good stuff Tey, i agree too.

I think for me i associate my quit with TOA since it had just came out. I just think they gave up on the game way to soon, simply too soon. But the dropping of emain was just a bad move i think, everyone i remember from Guin was not to happy about that. Why couldnt they of just made frontiers a new area to try out? Like they didnt even put Lore to it, "oh emain? We just took it out"....thats just silly, at least have like it burnt to the ground or something that took place where its gone, not just pull it out of the game...there was no reason for that.

I agree the 3 way dance is awesome, theres a new game called Prime coming out though that Sanya is involved in and it has a 3 way setup like DAOC and its set in space i believe, looks pretty cool. But yea nothing like running into albs or hibs in a battle then get flanked by the mids...man, that was intense back then and so much fun.

[Arunne]

I played on Alb/Nimue. We were the small RP server.

When TOA came out, most of Alb rejected the TOA grind and we kept RvRing cause that's what we loved. Well a Hib group of power gamers powered their way thru ML9 and then took out their new master levels and did a relic raid on us. I remember our desperate defense at Excalibur. When 16 hibs managed to just destroy the 100 albs defending the relic keep. The Power and healing fonts totally negated everything we threw at them. They AOE raped all of us. The best part, the bard used the gateway ability to teleport strait back to Hib with our relic. No way to stop them.

Shortly after that happened, Mythic nerfed a lot of the ML abilities to keep that from happening again.

After that happened, we all resolved ourselves to get ML10 so we wouldnt suffer that fate again. So me and my friends organized the big push to get all the RvR regulars thru ML10. Which we did, and we got back out and RVR was good again. They adjusted abilities and artifacts and it was good.

For us the end came when they released NF. It totally killed RvR for us. I knew it was over for me when we spent a good 8 hours on a Sunday trying to retake one of our keeps that the Mids had raised to level 10. Its like, this is not fun at all.

Anyway the good times were great. I made all the gaming friends that I still play every new MMO with. We have never made many new MMO friends that have stuck with us like the old DAOC clan.

[Darv]

Jul 6, 2011 17:35:30 GMT -5 Setharion said:

But yea nothing like running into albs or hibs in a battle then get flanked by REL POR and watching all albs/hibs get destroyed...man, that was intense back then and so much fun.

fixed that for you, Seth

[Setharion]

Rel Por, man i havent heard that name in a long time ;D

[dunker]

teylix: Yeah, it isn't bad now, which is why I'd take what they have now and use it. Everything can be done with 1 group + bots. Artifacts don't actually require the artifact. Everything is purchasable with BP's. All the bugs are removed. It's just so... polished.

And as Seth mentioned, the new game "Prime" is going back to a 3-way deal, which I think is why Sanya is on board. It brings up a lot of balancing issues that most games encounter anyway, so we'll see what happens. Unfortunately, the game is NEW, and I mean website is about 2 weeks old new. I'm hoping by the time it's released (2013 or so?) I'll still be interested in that type of game, because it looks very interesting.

Haha, Rel Por. I remember Themo, Headless, and Calimond joined Obliteration for awhile.

[Setharion]

So is DAOC still viable to play these days? I mean i guess so after hearing you guys mention it and seeing Marrian still plays.

[dunker]

Jul 6, 2011 20:47:04 GMT -5 Setharion said:

So is DAOC still viable to play these days? I mean i guess so after hearing you guys mention it and seeing Marrian still plays.

Depends if you have people to play with or not. If you have friends, or a bot, getting a character up and running takes very little time. Leveling is quite easy, especially if you have someone to power level you (which isn't as trying as it sounds). Once you hit 50, outfit that bot with some decent RoG gear and check VN-Ywain for some ML times and you're off.

At this point you can either farm platinum however you choose, go farm for Dragon Scales, do ML 10 for the revamped weapons, or RvR. The choice is really up to you.

The best templates have Dragon Scale gear and ML 10 weapons in them, unless you're melee. Having no weapon templates is all the rage these days (if you solo).

If you farm up enough plat, you can buy just about everything you need. You can get someone with bounty points to buy all your ToA stuff for you to turn in, buy Dragon Scales for dragon gear, buy ML 10 weapons, and buy the crafted armor.

Yes, you can use bounty points to buy everything from ToA now.

And you really don't have to do all that ASAP. I'm just an OCD gamer. If you want, get up to 50 and go running out there, I'm sure the zergs still exist. I haven't played in about a year but if the population is as healthy now as it was then there should be action.

Oh and they're removing ML EXP, from what I understand.

[Setharion]

Wow intersting. Hows it look these day? Any estimate on population? .

[Marrian]

Population wise, couldn't give you numbers. But, basically there is Ywain and Gaheris. They just merged the German servers onto Ywain last week. Granted there is Ywain 1-10, but it's just one giant server.

[Setharion]

Could you take a screenshot Marrian? Im curious to see how it looks these days from a direct screenshot.

[Marrian]

Of the population or the game? lol

[Setharion]

The game

[Marrian]

Sure, next time I log in I'll take some

Have you seen the new Cotswold Village?

[Setharion]

I havent seen anything since about 2003 with DAOC

[Marrian]

Oh well, then, it will all be new to you.

If I hop on tomorrow, I'll post 'em

[Marrian]

Also, DAoC has more than two expansions. They have seven:

Shrouded Isles (SI)
Foundations (housing)
Trials of Atlantis (ToA)
New Frontiers
Catacombs
Darkness Rising
Labyrinth of the Minotaur

However, all are now available for free download, I believe.

[Setharion]

Yea, i was there for SI, Foundations, ToA, Catacombs, DR...not for that Minotaur place though.

[Marrian]

Then you played past 2003, because it came out in 2005 . Not sure if the upgrades to Camelot/Tir na nog/Jordheim were done by then, though.

[Setharion]

Actually, catacombs i may not of delved into..i think it was JUST coming out, but i cant recall.

I know for a fact Foundations was out, I know Frontiers was out, SI i played, i did DF when it was out, TOA came out in 03 though right? I think i bailed around Frontiers if i remember, once that came out and emain was gone that was it for me.

[Marrian]

I think Frontiers & ToA had a lot to do with the demise, but then adding Catacombs kind of messed it up more, because then it wasn't really required to group for instances, etc.