MMO Discussion

[dunker]

I've noticed that, out of the 40+ members, I don't see much discussion on MMO's. I've even seen people with few posts who have said they are MMO only.

I can understand this, the titles are few compared to consoles. Their releases are few and usually heralded for awhile just before day one, and fade out quickly after. Most people may have seen it, heard it, or already get it. Some people may just say "Why would I play one?".

Well I'd like to hear more on the subject. It's a game type, and there is little to no discussion on the boards here regarding the genre.

What MMO's have you played? What did you think of them?

Are you playing an MMO now (played one recently and quit)? What do/did you think of it?

Are you anticipating an MMO release? Why?

Are there any MMO titles you wish you had tried, and didn't?

What, in your opinion, makes an MMO great and would draw your dollars?

These are just a few questions to get people started if necessary. Skies the limit here ladies and gents.

I just wanted to get this topic rolling. I'll post my response shortly.

Aside- I posted this in PC because that is (in my opinion) the dominant MMO platform. If it needs be moved to the Gaming Arena general, I have no problem with it.

[Setharion]

Nice post Dunker, very nice and this should make for great discussion. I think as time goes on we will get more of an MMO crowd here as well.

As for the subject, i think the concept is incredible. I remember playing Ultima and while i loved it, Everquest brought it to life. And for me no game has matched the ferocity and ominous world that Everquest presented to me. Even to this day that world is just mindboggling, riddled with content and lore, riddled with life of its own and i think its an amazing, amazing concept.

At the time when i was younger, grinding and spending 10-15 hour or more days was no big deal but i cant quite do that anymore, so my views on MMOs have changed a bit. Even though i like grinding in my rpgs, MMOs go to another level with it and that is one of my turn offs.

I went from EQ to Asherons Call and I loved the game once again, it just had that feel but i found myself totally itching for Dark Age of Camelot back in 2000. And I couldnt wait for October of 01 to come out.

For me DAOC was the pinnacle of a great MMO because while it had items and loot etc...it wasnt focused on it, and not that im SO INTO PVP....i appreciated that it wasnt really based on who had the most gear, it was sort of a stoppage of gear at one point and then you fought in the warfronts. And the game was just amazing, i loved it and i loved EQ/AC as well but all for different reasons.

As time moved on and DAOC died off from so many wonky decisions, and then WoW came out and SWG came out, and Aion, and down the line we go i sort of found myself in the same boat in every game. I start off strong, i can give it time but its reasonable time and not massive days...i level to max just to find myself staring down the same problem, a treadmill effect that i cant keep up with. And i find myself weighing the options, MMO or console gaming/PC/Handheld.

And as much as i love the concepts, i just think they need to find a new way for it. Maybe SW:ToR is the one, im not sure. But i feel the concepts need to be built around more than just grinding out loot and grinding dungeons on end for seals or emblems to buy more loot that is outdated by the next soon to be released patch.

I love the concept, but like i said i just find in every MMO lately i adore it leveling up, by the time i get to max and see that i just cant keep up i get discouraged and end up fading out, thats sort of my norm these days.

But i am looking forward to GW2 and SW:ToR to see how they fare.

[dunker]

To answer the questions:

1. A. Everquest - Got me hooked on MMO's, enjoy what I can remember (started at age 12. Yes, 12).
B. Dark Age of Camelot - Favorite MMO to date
C. Everquest 2 - Played for the nostalgia of EQ. Hit or miss.
D. WoW - Love/hate relationship with the game. It's a game, I know, but still.
E. AoC - Released too early, way too buggy. Should have waited, little to no enjoyment.

2. I took a long hiatus from MMO's, and I'm now back in WoW. The game has changed, as I mentioned in the WoW thread. I honestly can't tell you how I feel about it, because I don't know.

3. I'm looking for more information on KOTOR. I dunno, I'm one of those people looking for a game that gets away from the WoW medium, but is new. I understand how companies feel, why fix what isn't broke?

4. I wish I had tried LOTRO. I heard it has/had great PvE, and a decent PvP system (maybe worse than WoW, but worth a distraction every now and again).

5. To me, an MMO needs to have some freedom. You have all that space, all that money, you should be able to create a massive world. But within that world, you should have major amounts of freedom. I understand this could create some griefing situations, etc. but that is (in my opinion) what testing is for. To me, an MMO should be a giant sandbox outdoors, with developed dungeons/capital cities and story lines. Strangely enough, it seems the model for success right now is strict rules in a strict environment.

[dunker]

Jun 15, 2011 22:44:51 GMT -5 Setharion said:

Nice post Dunker, very nice and this should make for great discussion. I think as time goes on we will get more of an MMO crowd here as well.

As for the subject, i think the concept is incredible. I remember playing Ultima and while i loved it, Everquest brought it to life. And for me no game has matched the ferocity and ominous world that Everquest presented to me. Even to this day that world is just mindboggling, riddled with content and lore, riddled with life of its own and i think its an amazing, amazing concept.

At the time when i was younger, grinding and spending 10-15 hour or more days was no big deal but i cant quite do that anymore, so my views on MMOs have changed a bit. Even though i like grinding in my rpgs, MMOs go to another level with it and that is one of my turn offs.

I went from EQ to Asherons Call and I loved the game once again, it just had that feel but i found myself totally itching for Dark Age of Camelot back in 2000. And I couldnt wait for October of 01 to come out.

For me DAOC was the pinnacle of a great MMO because while it had items and loot etc...it wasnt focused on it, and not that im SO INTO PVP....i appreciated that it wasnt really based on who had the most gear, it was sort of a stoppage of gear at one point and then you fought in the warfronts. And the game was just amazing, i loved it and i loved EQ/AC as well but all for different reasons.

As time moved on and DAOC died off from so many wonky decisions, and then WoW came out and SWG came out, and Aion, and down the line we go i sort of found myself in the same boat in every game. I start off strong, i can give it time but its reasonable time and not massive days...i level to max just to find myself staring down the same problem, a treadmill effect that i cant keep up with. And i find myself weighing the options, MMO or console gaming/PC/Handheld.

And as much as i love the concepts, i just think they need to find a new way for it. Maybe SW:ToR is the one, im not sure. But i feel the concepts need to be built around more than just grinding out loot and grinding dungeons on end for seals or emblems to buy more loot that is outdated by the next soon to be released patch.

I love the concept, but like i said i just find in every MMO lately i adore it leveling up, by the time i get to max and see that i just cant keep up i get discouraged and end up fading out, thats sort of my norm these days.

But i am looking forward to GW2 and SW:ToR to see how they fare.

You bring up some great points, a few that I wanted to bring up and forgot, and a few I never really thought of.

That's part of what's happening to me lately. Back when I could put in the time for the games, they were awesome. DAOC and WoW especially, I had all the time in the world and I was Top Dog. Now I don't have that time, and I find myself middle of the road at best.

But games have become so "haves" vs. "have nots" that I don't know if you could even make a game that could cater to both at the max level. That is to say, make a game that gives both hardcore and casual players a sense of total accomplishment. For instance: In most recent games, to raid you must actually have a set schedule outside of your own personal life schedule. To me, that's too much.

I can see the counter-argument though: "Wah, wah. Look how contradictory you are. You used to be one of those people with the time. Now you don't have it, so why should anything change just for you?"

Well, I think it should change due to an aging gamer generation. Most people I know are casual (or have become casual), and have no interest in playing forever just to get random piece of loot X, or achievement Y. I see the "I don't have time" thing more and more, and now I'm actually one of those people.

It's an interesting dilemma. I always thought a sandbox type game would fix this. But how do you define a sandbox? Can you create dungeons that scale per say 5 people, so you can go in for a 5 person, 10, 15, etc. while still holding on to encounter mechanics and keeping the overall feel of the dungeon?

I'm in the same boat as you. I feel as if the concept is incredible, and I've created a ton of friends with whom I still keep in touch.

However, I feel time constraints are slowly pushing me from the genre into more console and single-player games. Interestingly enough, these genres (once you take care of your backlog) are more expensive than the one time cost and small monthly fee model of MMO's. The biggest dilemma is, can I truly make an argument for the one side of more casual friendly when, on the other hand, I used to be hardcore.

[Freneticburn]

I never played a proper MMORPG until Lineage 2. I had a cousin who was into Ultima Online and Everquest and I remember always hearing about them though. I did play a lot of multiplayer online RPGs like PSO, Diablo 2, Neverwinter Nights, and such though. I first got suckered into Lineage 2 shortly after I basically had a mental breakdown and dropped out of college and quit my job. I was working full time and going to school full time and the stress just built up and exploded one day. I spent like 6 months doing NOTHING but Halo LAN parties and Lineage 2 and it was fucking fantastic until I had to start payments on my student loans and my savings were a bit low. Got a job and suddenly Lineage 2 felt too much like work and with the way that game worked a lot of the community stuff was scheduled while I was at work.

I never minded the monthly fees because L2 would get an expansion every 6 months and you didn't pay extra for them. The servers were rarely down when I played and GMs were usually helpful and quick.

I remember wanting to get into Age of Conan and followed it quite early in development. I'm a HUUUUGE Conan fan and the game sounded great in concept but as the release date got closer it seemed like they kept making it worse. I never did play it or follow up on it but when I stopped caring was when I felt focus groups were fucking everything up and forcing the developer to nerf everything. Maybe the developers themselves chose to dumb everything down but I remember seeing some of the videos after release and just being disappointed. I almost wonder if they just got too ambitious and bit off more than they could chew.

I don't plan on getting into any proper MMORPGs any time soon. I LOVED Lineage 2 and had a blast for the majority of time but it was just a ridiculous time sink. I can imagine myself being 90 years old, crapping myself at my PC while playing Lineage 7 or something but I probably won't touch another MMORPG until I'm retired or get lucky and get together with a super rich woman and become her unemployed boytoy.

[TheBladeRoden]

What MMO's have you played? What did you think of them?
1. Neocron beta - Beginner quest where everyone was crawling around the sewers killing rats. But that took forever so I just started exploring the unfinished city outskirts and outlands where testers weren't supposed to go, and that was fun but I never did sub.

2. Planetside- That was a fun game, like a more persistent version of Battlefield. Good fun flying in a transport and being dropped into a base assault with a hundred people. Started going to crap after that meteor event though. The map was difficult to read, weapon imbalances grew tiresome, especially especially those giant mechs.

3.Star Wars Galaxies beta - can't really remember much besides running around exploring the different planets. I tried it again after the revamp and it was even worse than I remembered.

4. World of Warcraft - Played for a few weeks in 2006, but I always got bored with the quests when my characters got around 15-20. That and it was a pain fiddling with those HUD addons.

5. Warhammer Online - Followed a similar fate to my 2006 WoW outing. Got bored of doing the same quests three times with each race with no other souls around.

Are you playing an MMO now (played one recently and quit)? What do/did you think of it?
Tried out Cataclysm this past April. The UI did get a nice touch up, and the new races get more cinematic starting quests, but places often felt rather empty that weren't Stormwind's trade disctrict. I could be convinced to buy Cata, but it's a shame it doesn't come with a free month.

Are you anticipating an MMO release? Why?
I'm hoping ToR will be good, but I hear mixed impressions. They did announce a Warhammer 40k MMO a while pack, but I haven't anything about it since.

Are there any MMO titles you wish you had tried, and didn't?
I might have liked to try LOTRO or Rift

What, in your opinion, makes an MMO great and would draw your dollars?
I would like to see an MMO that moves away from instanced fighting, where all the battles are on the main map and whole cities can be won or lost.

[adam99x]

When I first heard about MMORPG, I really didn't think too much about it. Seeing that there are a thousand people playing in the same server really made me skittish on how the actual gameplay would pan out. I bought Everquest because I've heard so much about it online and when I started playing, I went into a house and found a bag on a bed, so I picked it up and start walking around...then a person saw me with the bag and called me a ninja and I had no idea what the hell was going on so I ran.... I ran so far away (got that damn song in my head now ). I ran into the woods and got killed by a bear...screw it, snapped the game in half and never went back. Pretty piss poor excuse to kill a game off, but I really didn't like it. After awhile, word came out that Blizzard was making World of Warcraft...I was thinking great, another MMO. My cousin heard good things about it at work and thought..."hmmm, hey Adam, if I get this, would you play it?" I said, "no...if it's anything like Everquest, I'm not touching it." Well, he bought it and gave me the 10 day pass and let me tell you....the rest is history. From 2005 to current...i'm still playing the game every now and then. Can't believe how fast that time went. I tried Guild Wars because of the free monthly service, but the game just doesn't feel right. I wouldn't mind playing with some of you to see if i'm missing anything...but whatever. More recent however, I told myself that I'm going to get out of the MMO genre and focus on school...whoops. Thanks Rift. Now, I don't have any 50's yet, I have a 22 Mage, 22 Warrior, and 22 Cleric...but I hit a wall...thank god. now i can focus on my school for a bit.

[Freneticburn]

Jun 16, 2011 3:15:07 GMT -5 TheBladeRoden said:

What, in your opinion, makes an MMO great and would draw your dollars?
I would like to see an MMO that moves away from instanced fighting, where all the battles are on the main map and whole cities can be won or lost.

That pretty much describes Lineage 2. The game was very gangsta and Machiavellian. You could be minding your own damn business grinding XP and suddenly get murdered by griefers rolling 50+ deep. Clan/alliance wars were so much fun though if you had a large clan/alliance. I remember times rolling up to our favorite grinding spot and having to murder the party in our spot . And while you don't necessarily take cities you can take their castles through sieges and collect taxes on all sales in that city and sieges took place every other week in a certain time frame.

[NeoFoxTrot]

What MMO's have you played? What did you think of them?

I won't list them all, but I have played every major and most minor MMOs that have ever been released in America. Obviously, I like the genre, but I have started to slow down with my play time.

Are you playing an MMO now (played one recently and quit)? What do/did you think of it?

I just quit WoW recently, probably for the final time. Fantastic game, I've just spent too many years playing it and it's time to move on. I'm currently in a free 14 day trial of Eve Online. I'm not sure if I will sub once my trial is up, but I am having fun in the meantime.

Are you anticipating an MMO release? Why?

The Old Republic. 2 reasons - it's Star Wars, and it's being made by Bioware.

Are there any MMO titles you wish you had tried, and didn't?

Nope. I have tried every game that has interested me. Sometimes I will wait until a free trial is released, and sometimes I take a leap of faith and buy it. I tend to get in a lot of MMO betas though, so I usually know what I'm getting into.

What, in your opinion, makes an MMO great and would draw your dollars?

Devs who listen and interact with the community. I've been in too many MMOs where they say they do this, but their actions show otherwise.

[Manny-Calavera]

I only played WoW, and i'm not addicted to it. I only play when a buddy of mine can pay for his subscription. We use Skype for voice chat and we have lots of fun. But that's the only time i renew my subscription.

I'm anticipating The Old Republic, because it's Star Wars, i love the universe, and it's a Bioware product. But i don't know if i'll play it. I'm more of a single player gamer.

[dunker]

I didn't mean to let this die. I had to go out of town for a wedding, just got back in last night.

I'll read through the responses and see where we can go.

What I notice off the bat is that most people can't continue to play due to time constraints.

Do you have any suggestions on how MMO's can cater to all types of gamers while keeping the difficulty and allure for those who have the time to spend?

[Setharion]

Good question Dunker, ill have to think on that for a bit!

[dunker]

One thing to consider is WoW's approach of tiered difficulty.

10 and 25 man.
Regular and Heroic.
5 mans, regular and heroic.

I just don't have time to raid. It's a second work schedule (in my opinion). However, there just aren't enough 5 mans, including the Troll ones, to keep someone busy and interested in the game. The new quest line in 4.2 and the new dailies might keep me around, but I'm not sure.

Is it possible to continue to come out with 5-mans to match raid content and give players something to do that isn't a 3-5 hour commitment several times a week?

I think so. Hell, the fact that you can't turn any dungeon into a level 85 heroic still boggles me. I mean, to click "Random 5-man heroic" and have the option to enter any dungeon (sans the new Zandalari ones) would be epic. It would require some dungeons to be redesigned of course, which is probably why it's either in the works or hasn't been thought of.

So the overall question is: Is it worthwhile for a company to match their hardcore content with similar "casual" content? Yes, in my opinion. Especially since the majority of players out there are just that, casual.

[Sondiame]

I've played too many Mmos, half of them arent for me, There are some i played to death like PSO and Fiesta, but i just can't find the right balanced game for me. I haven't played any recently but i was thinking about going back to PSO Private servers. What MMos need today is innovation, im sick of starting up going through a tutorial area filled with people killing everything i need to kill, then i go and rank up, and it gets repetitive, i need some balance, Some differentiation.

[Darv]

I started with EQ back in 99 (I think). A coworker of mine (roomie at the time), started talking about this great new game coming out in 01... Dark Age of Camelot. Started that up week one of release and never went back to EQ. To this day, it's still my favorite MMO.

As for other MMOs, I've played or at least beta'd most that have come out since 01. While many have good qualities, I've yet to come across some that have that same feel as DAoC. I gotta have my PvP and they just don't deliver.

[NeoFoxTrot]

Jun 23, 2011 23:50:57 GMT -5 Darv said:

I started with EQ back in 99 (I think). A coworker of mine (roomie at the time), started talking about this great new game coming out in 01... Dark Age of Camelot. Started that up week one of release and never went back to EQ. To this day, it's still my favorite MMO.

As for other MMOs, I've played or at least beta'd most that have come out since 01. While many have good qualities, I've yet to come across some that have that same feel as DAoC. I gotta have my PvP and they just don't deliver.

Wow, this is almost identical to my situation. I had a roomie who played EQ and that was my first time trying out an MMO. But then I heard about DAoC, and that was it. To this day it's still my favorite MMO. I have yet to enjoy PvP in any other game like I did with DAoC. WAR came close, but it still fell short. From what I am hearing about SWTOR we may be in for a treat. Here's hoping...

[dunker]

Jun 24, 2011 8:13:33 GMT -5 NeoFoxTrot said:

Jun 23, 2011 23:50:57 GMT -5 Darv said:

I started with EQ back in 99 (I think). A coworker of mine (roomie at the time), started talking about this great new game coming out in 01... Dark Age of Camelot. Started that up week one of release and never went back to EQ. To this day, it's still my favorite MMO.

As for other MMOs, I've played or at least beta'd most that have come out since 01. While many have good qualities, I've yet to come across some that have that same feel as DAoC. I gotta have my PvP and they just don't deliver.

Wow, this is almost identical to my situation. I had a roomie who played EQ and that was my first time trying out an MMO. But then I heard about DAoC, and that was it. To this day it's still my favorite MMO. I have yet to enjoy PvP in any other game like I did with DAoC. WAR came close, but it still fell short. From what I am hearing about SWTOR we may be in for a treat. Here's hoping...

I'm in a similar boat. I've tried so many, and I think part of the reason I can't get into them is because they just aren't DAOC. It had such an innovative end-game (PvP-wise). You just never knew what was going to happen on a certain evening/day.

I miss it.

I agree with the innovation part (which may seem odd after what I just said about DAOC). But part of what made DAOC for me is that is was something new, especially when compared with EQ.

The question is, where do you go from here? Make an MMO that's part FPS, part RPG, part RTS, part...?

[NeoFoxTrot]

I think that, for me, one of the coolest things about DAoC and RvR was the fact that you had to watch your back from not just one other faction, but 2. It made siege battles really, really interesting.

[dunker]

Jun 24, 2011 10:22:35 GMT -5 NeoFoxTrot said:

I think that, for me, one of the coolest things about DAoC and RvR was the fact that you had to watch your back from not just one other faction, but 2. It made siege battles really, really interesting.

The three realm thing was always cool to me, even though to this day it's still causing balance issues. I think Mythic really went outside the box on that one. PvP-centric end game, but focused on a major effort by a realm. The larger the numbers the less the balance issues came into play (once certain... abilities were removed).

Unfortunately, due to the difficulty of balancing all of it out, I doubt we'll see people go beyond the two-sided system (I think GW2 is going to try, I'm not sure). However, I don't think anyone will be able to tap into the idea of completely different classes per side. That's what always got me, so many options.

[Darv]

Jun 24, 2011 13:25:09 GMT -5 dunker said:

Jun 24, 2011 10:22:35 GMT -5 NeoFoxTrot said:

I think that, for me, one of the coolest things about DAoC and RvR was the fact that you had to watch your back from not just one other faction, but 2. It made siege battles really, really interesting.

The three realm thing was always cool to me, even though to this day it's still causing balance issues. I think Mythic really went outside the box on that one. PvP-centric end game, but focused on a major effort by a realm. The larger the numbers the less the balance issues came into play (once certain... abilities were removed).

Unfortunately, due to the difficulty of balancing all of it out, I doubt we'll see people go beyond the two-sided system (I think GW2 is going to try, I'm not sure). However, I don't think anyone will be able to tap into the idea of completely different classes per side. That's what always got me, so many options.

Stun-gard... group purge... man, those were the days lol.

I would love to see someone else try a 3-sided endgame. You may be right, though... the challenge of keeping that balanced may stop many from even trying. From what little I've heard of GW2, the pvp there might come close. Will just have to wait and see, I guess.